"No man has learned anything rightly, until he knows that every day is Doomsday." -- Ralph Waldo EmersonIt's a popular trend at the moment to make fun of all the folks (a surprising number, honestly, although I don't believe I know any of them personally, perhaps not so surprisingly) who believe that tomorrow will bring the End of Days. And I'm not going to lie, I've been enjoying it just as much as the next smartass. Large scale kookery is a gift for snotty people like me.
But then, it's worth noting that I get a pretty regular stream of email and comments from Christians who seem to take it personally that we're not raising Schuyler to be a Christian. Some of you take it almost as a given that this represents a failure in parenting. I am challenged regularly on whether or not it's fair to Schuyler, denying her a Christian life or a church family. Oddly, I never get emails from Jewish or Islamic readers asking why I am denying her the experience of their faith. But there are more than a few Christians who behave as if they are entitled to take a stab at bringing my child into the flock.
It even happened at Schuyler's school recently. I caught some grief from Christian readers a couple of years ago when I expressed displeasure because a teacher gave Schuyler an angel sticker, leaving us to explain what that meant. Those same folks will be equally irritated to hear that we were deeply annoyed a few weeks ago when one of Schuyler's public school teachers told her that when people die, they turn into angels and go to Heaven.
"What's the harm in that?" I can already hear it. We're overreacting, they'll say, just like they did before. They can't see that it's problematic for us because suddenly we are put in the position of having to address issues of religion and faith with Schuyler, not because we think she's ready (because she's absolutely not), but because someone else decided she is. It doesn't matter that we are her parents. A higher power is calling, after all. And to a Christian who believes all this, it doesn't seem unreasonable at all, I suppose.
If you've grown up with it, the basic points of the Christ story seem perfectly plausible. I keep reading how mainstream Christians are upset about this rapture thing because it makes their religion look ridiculous or even cult-like. The Bible says we can't know the day or the hour that the Apocalypse will arrive, after all. Christians don't want their perfectly reasonable faith being tarnished by silliness.
But here's the thing. To those of us who aren't believers and who aren't raising our kids as Christians, it's no more or less silly than the rest of it. It's hard for us to distinguish how a virgin birth or a resurrection story are perfectly believable, but the end of the world? That's just crazy talk.
The difference with the rapture, particularly when you attach a date to it, is that unlike the rest of the stories, this part is empirically disprovable. If you're reading this on Sunday, you already know that it was bogus. (If you're actually waiting until Sunday to declare its goofiness, I salute your objectivity.) It's uncomfortable for some Christians because it's easily dispatched with.
We are an agnostic family. That's how we're raising Schuyler, which (in addition to not being a threat to Christianity) is our choice and our privilege, just like any other family. That we are doing so in a very Christian community is a challenge that we've knowingly taken on, but non-Christian families do the same thing all over the country, and they all face this kind of thing on some level or another. It's not a tragedy. It's not a burden that we bear. It's a pain in the ass, at the very worst.
But if the idea of the holiest of you flying up into the air tomorrow strikes us as amusing, that's just the price you're going to have to pay. You've made your choice, which to us looks no more or less valid than choosing to worship Odin or Zeus or a character on a box of breakfast cereal. To you, my choice seems sad. To me, yours looks silly. I don't see that changing any time soon. Maybe on Saturday, but I'm not holding my heathen breath.
But then, it's worth noting that I get a pretty regular stream of email and comments from Christians who seem to take it personally that we're not raising Schuyler to be a Christian. Some of you take it almost as a given that this represents a failure in parenting. I am challenged regularly on whether or not it's fair to Schuyler, denying her a Christian life or a church family. Oddly, I never get emails from Jewish or Islamic readers asking why I am denying her the experience of their faith. But there are more than a few Christians who behave as if they are entitled to take a stab at bringing my child into the flock.
It even happened at Schuyler's school recently. I caught some grief from Christian readers a couple of years ago when I expressed displeasure because a teacher gave Schuyler an angel sticker, leaving us to explain what that meant. Those same folks will be equally irritated to hear that we were deeply annoyed a few weeks ago when one of Schuyler's public school teachers told her that when people die, they turn into angels and go to Heaven.
"What's the harm in that?" I can already hear it. We're overreacting, they'll say, just like they did before. They can't see that it's problematic for us because suddenly we are put in the position of having to address issues of religion and faith with Schuyler, not because we think she's ready (because she's absolutely not), but because someone else decided she is. It doesn't matter that we are her parents. A higher power is calling, after all. And to a Christian who believes all this, it doesn't seem unreasonable at all, I suppose.
If you've grown up with it, the basic points of the Christ story seem perfectly plausible. I keep reading how mainstream Christians are upset about this rapture thing because it makes their religion look ridiculous or even cult-like. The Bible says we can't know the day or the hour that the Apocalypse will arrive, after all. Christians don't want their perfectly reasonable faith being tarnished by silliness.
But here's the thing. To those of us who aren't believers and who aren't raising our kids as Christians, it's no more or less silly than the rest of it. It's hard for us to distinguish how a virgin birth or a resurrection story are perfectly believable, but the end of the world? That's just crazy talk.
The difference with the rapture, particularly when you attach a date to it, is that unlike the rest of the stories, this part is empirically disprovable. If you're reading this on Sunday, you already know that it was bogus. (If you're actually waiting until Sunday to declare its goofiness, I salute your objectivity.) It's uncomfortable for some Christians because it's easily dispatched with.
We are an agnostic family. That's how we're raising Schuyler, which (in addition to not being a threat to Christianity) is our choice and our privilege, just like any other family. That we are doing so in a very Christian community is a challenge that we've knowingly taken on, but non-Christian families do the same thing all over the country, and they all face this kind of thing on some level or another. It's not a tragedy. It's not a burden that we bear. It's a pain in the ass, at the very worst.
But if the idea of the holiest of you flying up into the air tomorrow strikes us as amusing, that's just the price you're going to have to pay. You've made your choice, which to us looks no more or less valid than choosing to worship Odin or Zeus or a character on a box of breakfast cereal. To you, my choice seems sad. To me, yours looks silly. I don't see that changing any time soon. Maybe on Saturday, but I'm not holding my heathen breath.
47 comments:
Rob - and here I just had a post about my Christianity playing a part in being a special needs parent. *coughs*
I actually included a disclaimer (of sorts) to warn folks reading that I was going to touch on issues of faith, because to me, blogging at Kat's Cafe is about reaching out to folks about special needs parenting, about my kids, and the craziness of the lives we lead. I don't want to challenge folks on thier religious beliefs. It's certainly not what the blog is 'about'.
I was challenged before even publishing the post, and told that I shouldn't assume folks reading weren't Christians or supportive of my faith. To me, it's accepting that there are differences between me and the next person.
I admit to a certain gleefulness in the whole End of days thing myself, simply because I refuse to buy in to any of that crap. I have more important things to worry about, you know?
(Like Logan toilet papering the kids' bedroom window today - certainly more important than the state of this crazy world.)
Word. In Oregon, people of reason, if not the majority, are numerous. I am thankful.
I think it's time for you to move to New York City. No one will bother you here about religion.
As a non-Christian and an agnostice, I don't have anywhere near as much troubble with the idea of a virgin birth or resurection as I do with the idea that a God can be good and also will punish you if you don't believe in him. I can believe that a good God would punish people who do evil, but I could never ever accept the idea that a good God would be so small minded as to care whether good people believed in HIM/HER/IT and punish people for failing to do so.
Annie, I agree. That God feels like a narcissist and a bully to me.
I think it's time for you to move to New York City. No one will bother you here about religion.
We must not live in the same city. Of course they will! They do it to me all the time. But they'll be more public, street-crazy, and New York about it.
To quote on of my favorite movies...Monty Pythons Life of Brian
Brian: Please, please, please listen! I've got one or two things to say.
The Crowd: Tell us! Tell us both of them!
Brian: Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't NEED to follow ME, You don't NEED to follow ANYBODY! You've got to think for your selves! You're ALL individuals!
The Crowd: Yes! We're all individuals!
Brian: You're all different!
The Crowd: Yes, we ARE all different!
Excellent post!
I would be ripshit (pardon the language) if a teacher told my children that when they died and went to heave they would become angels. Keep up the good fight!
I would be ripshit (pardon the language) if a teacher told my child that when she died she would go to heaven and become an angel. Keep up the good fight!
Growing up as a secular Jewish person in a Christian -- really, a Catholic -- world led me to conclude that a lot of that stuff just didn't apply to me. Teachers and other adults routinely said happy Christian things too me. I smiled and said thank you and let it go. If I came home and asked my father, he would tell me why it was bullshit, but always respecting the others' rights to believe (as well as my own right to choose for myself as an adult.) Angels? Just part of the background culture, not religious to me. Rapture? Sure, why not, let 'em have it. As you say, they will only look silly tomorrow.
What an interesting post. I lost daughter three years ago and my partner and I found ourselves in the awkward position of having to explain death to our three and a half year old son. He had no concept of the word God, no idea what angels are and no understanding about the finality of death. Months later our son was still convinced that our daughter was in the hospital and that we needed to go get her. So we had to explain to him that she was no longer in a body, she was gone. We chose to call her a star, hoping to make the awful reality of her loss beautiful somehow...
Anyway a year later, my son is in kinder and trying to explain that he has a sister and where and what she is now... the kids were all very confused and asked him if he meant she was in heaven... and i suddenly found myself having to give a very brief lesson to my son about "God" and heaven... of which he has no real interest.
My son is now six and his favourite movie is Avater. It turns out that all he ever needed to know about life and death is revealed in this movie... He likes the concept of "spirit" and that is all he really needs to know. Lol.
With what Schuyler was told about angels and heaven... that is pretty serious. We were told not to tell stuff like that to our son unless we had the faith and community to back it up... which of course we don't.
As a Christian who enjoys your blog immensely but doesn't feel compelled to scold you for not living your life my way (just because I feel like I know you doesn't mean we know each other, and really, that's now how friends would have that kind of conversation anyway), I would also be absolutely furious with any teacher for telling my kid that when you die, you go to heaven and become an angel. Because if you're going to claim to subscribe to a belief system then for Pete's sake, at least get the details right. Bad theology. Citation, please.
I am a Christian and I'm still laughing it up about the end of the world today. Not every Christian is crazy or mean. Some (most?) of us are just normal people.
But here's the thing. To those of us who aren't believers and who aren't raising our kids as Christians, it's no more or less silly than the rest of it. It's hard for us to distinguish how a virgin birth or a resurrection story are perfectly believable, but the end of the world? That's just crazy talk.>>
YES! I feel like saying "amen!" to this. The people who just can't stand the idea of one little girl (yours) being raised in a non-religious household would be appalled to meet my friend who has 5 kids under 10...and no religion. Horrors! They're the most delightful, well adjusted children I know.
I agree with almost everything you posted. While I completely agree that the teacher may have crossed a line by telling Schuyler that people become angels and go to heaven when they die, I think it's also very easy to explain away in terms that any child can understand. "The truth is, we don't know what happens when people die, so people have come up with all kinds of theories (ideas, explanations, possibilities, whatever). Your teacher's theory is one that a lot of people believe where we live. In other parts of the world, people have completely different theories. I don't believe any of them really, because I just don't know which one is right."
That kind of approach makes the most sense to me, at least.
I too am enjoying the silliness associated with this rapture business. One of my "friends" from high school who still lives in Plano posted on Friday about how offended she was by all the posts "supporting post rapture looting." That has kept me laughing for almost 24 hours. Sometime all you can do is roll your eyes!
My favorite, when I objected to my non Christian children being taught religion was "well, don't you want them to know how normal people live?" Of course, that was a close tie to "do Jews have a Bible?", from a avowedly strong Christian, active in her church and actually a pretty nice person.
HEEEEE! Salute your objectivity. INDEED! This was another great post, and one I can really relate to (I'm an atheist who's culturally a Jew, and I live in the South). I actually had a "Christian" neighbor come to visit my critically ill infant in the hospital and offer moral support in the form of "doesn't all of THIS make you think you should change your relationship with Christ?" with "quit killing your baby, infidel" overtones. I think it was fucking magnificent of me not to give her a foot-assist out of the PICU-stepdown unit.
Rob, how in the world do you justify celebrating Christmas, and giving Schuyler the middle name Noelle? Go back and read your post for her 2010 bday.
If you don't want to raise Schuyler as a Christian, that's your choice. So be it.
You are a hypocrite. You celebrate CHRISTmas, and give Schuyler a CHRISTmas middle name, but take any opportunity you can to take a sucker punch at Christians.
You are kind of like a fairweather friend... you are there when times are good, and the circumstances suit you, but other than that, the rest of it can go to hell while you snicker about it.
That's your strongest argument, Kim? That because we celebrate, SECULARLY, a holiday season that extends far beyond the Happy Birthday Jesus bounds and is in fact observed almost universally across the lines of faith, we are hypocrites? THAT is your most powerful argument? Really?
You're not taking the stand of a dedicated Christian, Kim. You are, once again, a petulant child, one who makes a knee-jerk reaction every time I write something that doesn't fit with your narrow Christian view of the world. And the best you can say is "You gave your child a seasonal name and you exchange holiday presents, you're crashing our super special holiday party even though you a NOT INVITED!"
You act as if I learned the secret handshake for your ultra exclusive club. Weak, Kim. Very very weak.
Also, I seem to remember that because of my disrespectful attitude towards your Imaginary Friend, you were taking your toys and never ever ever reading my wicked blog again.
Here's what I said in the post that Kim mentions:
Schuyler wasn't due until January of 2000. When she was born two weeks early, we tossed out the middle name we had chosen (Helena, in honor of the grandmother I never met; we decided to save that name for a future daughter, but Fate and its monster had different plans) and instead chose Noelle, the feminine form of a French word meaning simply "Christmas".
For the past eleven years, Christmas and Schuyler have always been inextricably connected to me. We're not Christians, but we have our own miracle baby to celebrate this time of the year. (Let the indignant emails begin.) To me, Schuyler is Christmas.
It seems to me that I was equally dismissive of the baby Jesus back then. Heathen jerk? Sure. But I don't see the hypocrisy, unless you a pretending that the season HASN'T permeated our culture in ways both religious and secular.
You can't continue to saturate every inch of the culture with Christmas imagery and then complain when people observe it outside of your narrow dogma.
Actually, Kim, your Christian forefathers took the date of your Christmas from pagan Winter celebrations, so no, you don't own some sort of special copyright on that particular holiday celebration. But if you want to assign a special task force to patrol homes on December 25 and make sure that everyone exchanging gifts and eating a nice ham is a true believer, then I wish you luck in establishing your theocracy.
I hope you gave that teacher an earful, Rob. I cannot believe that in 2011 we still have public school teachers who do not understand keeping religious views out of the classroom. Gah. Save it for church!
I'm raising four beautiful well adjusted kids without religion. I will pray not sure to who but anyone that is listening if my special girl is really sick or going for a scary medical test. We love Christmas here too so much fun! Heaven well I hope it's exists I like to be open minded. We don't really talk about it religion here I don't believe my kids are missing out. We are lucky to have our kids growing up in a very multicultural community the beauty of big city in Canada. I can't believe people email you about religion I won't really want to receive or respond to emails like that. My impression is Americans are much more religious then canadians but as I don't participate much in the church thing perhaps I'm wrong. Your not alone .
'My Imaginary Friend'?
Rob, your imaginary friend is Schuyler's "monster." Why don't you give up that term and quit labeling her as someone with a monster? It's juvenile to say the least.
One other suggestion, instead of having a fit when someone gives Schuyler an angel, why don't you take her to the libary and let her check out a children's Bible? Why do you insist on raising her in a (hypocrite) agnostic environment instead of letting her read about God and angels, and let her form her own beliefs and opinions for once. You seem to take the approach that 'don't give my daughter an angel... sigh... we might have to take time out of our busy little agnostic world to explain something to her that WE don't believe in.'
You can dance around the subject all you want, but you are a hypocrite, and I have called you on it more than once.
Oh, Kim. I have no idea where to even start. You never ever change. You are consistently a real-life composite of everything I find wrong with Christianity.
Rob, your imaginary friend is Schuyler's "monster." Why don't you give up that term and quit labeling her as someone with a monster? It's juvenile to say the least.
See, there's a difference here, a crucial one. I use "monster" as a metaphor. Is it juvenile? Maybe, although a lot of parties seem to disagree with you, not the least of which would be St. Martin's Press. But it's not literal; I don't in fact believe that there is an actual monster inside her brain. Your imaginary friend, on the other hand, is real to you. To you, he really was born to a virgin mom, he really performed magic tricks like turning water to wine and conjuring up fish sandwiches and bringing a dead guy back to life ("And the Lord said unto them, "Ta da!!!"), and he really did die and come back to life. From where I'm standing, this is a children's story, which brings me to an important point.
One other suggestion, instead of having a fit when someone gives Schuyler an angel, why don't you take her to the libary and let her check out a children's Bible? Why do you insist on raising her in a (hypocrite) agnostic environment instead of letting her read about God and angels, and let her form her own beliefs and opinions for once.
Now this is interesting. First of all, I can't imagine you'd suggest the same to a Christian family, that they take their kids to the library to learn about Buddhism or Islam or to read a little Christopher Hitchens. But of course, you would never do that, because all those other non-christian beliefs are entirely wrong and YOUR religious sect is entirely correct.
Even more interesting to me (and yes, as I've expressed before, I believe that 9 times out of 10, people passive-aggressively use the word "interesting" when they actually mean "bullshit"; you should make that same assumption now...) is the fact that I stated very clearly that Julie and I believe Schuyler's own powers of critical thinking are not nearly well-developed enough for this discussion. This isn't any different than any other parents' decision that their child isn't ready for a specific topic (religion, politics, dirty dirty sex, etc.), and yet you make the assumption that it's the PERFECT time for such a discussion, and that your religious fervor has more validity than our knowledge and perspective as Schuyler's parents.
Do you know who does that? Do you know who works to undermine familial (and particularly parental) relationships in order to win adherents to their belief system? Cults, that's who. And that is exactly what you are suggesting, Kim. Because we don't follow YOUR ridiculous Zombie Cult, we aren't fit to decide what's best for Schuyler. YOU are. You, and your Imaginary Friend.
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Kim's big finish goes:
You can dance around the subject all you want, but you are a hypocrite, and I have called you on it more than once.
Yes, you have, many times after you declared you were never coming back and never reading again. You have used that word so many times, and yet almost never in a relevant way. A non-Christian father with a non-Christian wife, choosing not to raise his daughter as a Christian? I'm not sure what's hypocritical about that, unless you are going back to our secular participation in a holiday season which, as has been pointed out by someone else, is one that your religion shamelessly appropriated from Pagans.
If you look up the word "hypocrite", I think you'll find something more along the lines of "someone who expends a great deal of energy in judgment towards others, while at the same time claiming to follow the tenets of a religious text that admonishes 'Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.'"* (Courtesy of St. Matthew, who apparently didn't get the memo.)
*FUNNY FOOTNOTE: If you Google that passage, you will find a number of Christian writers who will explain, at length, why it doesn't mean what it appears to mean, and how they are in fact encouraged by the Bible to go out and judge heathens to their heart's content. It really is quite awesome to behold. Seriously, go try it. (Not you, Kim. I suspect it would be old hat to you.)
Here's my take on this, and mind, I've been to olaces where if you anounce your christianity without a gun in your hand you get stoned to death.
I grew up catholic, as my ancestors did, after a while I moved to christianity, and after thinking about it for a while moved on to united. All are variations on the same theme.
I don't flaunt it or even really go to church much, I do however belive in the ideals. I also belive that each person's belifs are their own, and as long as your belifs don't end in you trying to kill me, I have no problem with you doing your own thing, or teaching others the same.
WOW!! I so just used that same passage against my husbands Aunt the other day! His uncle was upset with him for using the "Fools Language" on his own Facebook page because he was afraid that his Grandmother would read it. Were talking about a lady that can't even work a cell phone. So the Aunt went on to irrelevantly ridicule my husband on her FB for watching "Cartoons" as she calls them, or Anime as our little non bigoted non Christian family correctly calls it. We are obviously horrible people that don't tote our bibles around so we deserved the attack. It seems ALL the religious nuts are up in arms a bit more this week...I'm guessing some are still feeling a bit down that they didn't get their rapture.
I'm Pagan, Christmas was ours first. Where exactly do you think the term "Yule" comes from?
The baby Jesus birthday BS annoys me greatly. I tell my daughter that "Some people believe [xyz]" whenever zealots start yammering on about how "All ways here, are MY ways!" or whatever.
I think the part that bothers me the most is the sense of entitlement. It's not enough that Christians can saturate the culture with their beliefs or raise their own families to believe as they do. There's a sense of threat if anyone else dares to do differently.
That's when you start getting the "cancel this tv show because I think it is un-Christian" or "you should teach your child what I believe!" It's aggressive and weird.
Again, in my opinion, it crosses the line into cult territory.
Rob, you are wrong about one thing... yes, if my son, now 22, wanted to learn about buddhism or islam, fine with me. Go read about it and form your own opinions and beliefs. I don't keep things from him, or try and shelter him from other religions. Which is what you do with Schuyler.
What I don't get about you, and never have, is how often you reference God, and Jesus Christ in your blog... sometimes you are an agnostic (again, depending on whatever kind of mood you are in that day) and sometimes you reference Him as though there is a possibility that He exists. Which is it? You can't have it both ways. You've even gone so far as to call Him a bully.
I'm going back to one of your posts about a year ago where you were going to speak about autism in a Baptist environment...here are some of your own words:
"the amount of ink I spilled discussing God", "something as a truce with God", "at least I was still talking to God", "we fully intend to teach Schuyler about Jesus Christ."
You continually contradict yourself. The way you talk about Him on any given day, or whether or not you acknowledge His existance, depends solely on your mood for the day. You ARE a hypocrite.
First of all, Kim, as I have said before, we will teach Schuyler about religions, including yours, WHEN WE BELIEVE SHE IS READY. And as her parents, WE make that choice. Schuyler isn't like every other kid, her development is happening at a different pace. You don't get to walk in here, Bible in hand, and declare that she is ready.
I know it suits your purpose, to teach kids that the Jesus story is true and if they doubt it, they will burn in Hell, and if that can be done while they are young enough to embed that fear before they have the critical thinking skills to question it, all the better. But you don't get to tell another parent that YOU know better than they when the time is appropriate.
Kim, you simply refuse to acknowledge that someone else might not equate "God" with "Jesus". You keep pretending that when I say I don't believe in the Christian fairy tale, I am therefore saying there is no God.
As long as you continue to do that, you are an idiot. Perhaps you are being an idiot on purpose, but you are an idiot just the same.
You still don't know the meaning of the word "hypocrite". You should do something about that. Moron.
What I don't get about you, and never have, is how often you reference God, and Jesus Christ in your blog.
Please, Kim. Please find the place where I referenced Jesus as anything other than a fairy tale. Please. Point me to the place where I professed even an occasional belief in the divinity of Christ. I'll wait.
God, I hate stupid.
I can't believe I missed this part the first time I read and responded:
sometimes you are an agnostic (again, depending on whatever kind of mood you are in that day) and sometimes you reference Him as though there is a possibility that He exists. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.
In addition to not knowing that there's a difference between "Jesus" and "God", you seem powerfully confused about the difference between "agnostic" and "atheist".
A dictionary. Seriously. You've even got a whole list of words to look up now.
Rob, I am not going to go back into all of your blog archives, I've done it enough in the past 2 days. But I've been reading here since the 'Chubbin' and the New Haven days. I've given you enough examples.
One thing though, I bet you've prayed on more than one occasion... perhaps at times when you've been scared or unsure about the outcome of some of Schuyler's medical tests, etc. Who is it that you pray to? My imaginary friend or yours?
You have never given a single example of me professing even a passing belief in Jesus Christ. You haven't because hasn't been one, not since I was a child.
The fact that you willfully insist on confusing belief in God with belief in the divinity of Christ, as well as intentionally conflating agnosticism with atheism changes nothing. It simply shows just how weak your argument remains, and how woefully unprepared you are to have a serious conversation about this topic.
As for my own prayer, I've written about the last time I ever prayed, eight years ago when Schuyler was diagnosed. The party to whom I prayed was not one with whom you are apparently familiar. It wasn't the baby Jesus, that's for certain.
If I were going to pray to imaginary characters, I'd probably chose Curious George. At least he occasionally wondered about things he didn't know, instead of just repeating the same tired dogma.
"I know it suits your purpose, to teach kids that the Jesus story is true and if they doubt it, they will burn in Hell"
Where is that coming from? I have never, ever said that because it is not true. Quote me all you want, but don't make blanket statements like that.
kim, even if he had changed his mind at some point (which, as far as i can see, he hasn't) changing one's mind does not make one a hypocrite. i was a pretty hardcore christian until the second semester of my sophomore year in high school, when i went over to the other extreme (atheism) and have been that way ever since. that doesn't mean i'm a hypocrite, it means i made a decision based on new information.
For the record "Noel" - which is feminized to Noelle in both Schuyler and my stepdaughter's middle names, has come to mean "Christmas" in French - but that is because the word is a French derivative of the Latin "Natale" - or (drum roll please) BIRTHDAY. So it is entirely appropriate as a name for any child..phht. And in ancient Rome (as long as we're on Latin) the Dec 25 timeframe has to do with the festival Saturnalia - which was deliberately appropriated by Christians in the 4th Century CE because it was so extremely popular that it was the only way they could get Christians to stop celebrating it.
And about 99% of all your Christmas customs stem from ancient Rome and other European pagans throughout the centuries. Instead of asking why a nonChristian celebrates the festival, Kim, ask yourself why on earth you DO?
And then, why - if you're such a strongly knowledgeable Christian, why it doesn't matter to you that someone is telling kids that the dead turn into angels, which is no where in the Bible, nor in ANY of your creeds.
Clean up you own house before you go wagging your finger at someone else's.
"sometimes you are an agnostic (again, depending on whatever kind of mood you are in that day) and sometimes you reference Him as though there is a possibility that He exists. Which is it? You can't have it both ways."
Really? So vocabulary just isn't your strong suit. When you're researching everything else, look up 'agnostic' while you're at it.
"I know it suits your purpose, to teach kids that the Jesus story is true and if they doubt it, they will burn in Hell"
Where is that coming from? I have never, ever said that because it is not true. Quote me all you want, but don't make blanket statements like that.
So Kim, are you actually a Bible-reading Christian or not? Because while I can see the parts in here that you must assume apply to me, I wonder what those kids who are full of doubt or fear would think. It looks pretty clear to me, and I'm pretty certain that this isn't the only scary boo part of your Bible that says something like this:
(Rev.21:8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Unless that's like some kind of hot springs, natural spa sort of thing. In which case, it sounds swell.
Wow, thats all I can say about the comments back and forth. I would say that I'm at a point in my life where I hope that Jesus will meet me in heaven but not ready to say I have that faith. It is unfortunate that we (Kim) can't read someone else's opinions or beliefs and not leave it at that "someone else's". I agree with you Rob that it should totally be up to you as parents to decide when your daughter learns certain aspects of religion. I can also see a sticky situation though when a teacher is asked about death and not knowing how to reply because she may not have known each family's belief system. As an educator I could see myself giving the same response.
P.S. I am currently reading your book and loving it. I absolutely love your amazing descriptions of your love for your daughter!! Thanks for opening my eyes to what it means to be a true advocate for our children.
As a Christian and a parent, I want you to know that I am offended on your behalf by the teacher who used the angel sticker and brought up the subjects of death/Heaven with Schuyler. That's not something you do with someone else's kid. I wouldn't do it, and I sure hope no one would do it to mine. And again - I'm a Christian. *sigh* Just one more example of me having to sheepishly protest, "Not ALL Christians are like that ...."
Right on, adequatemon! Rob, not all Christians are like that. I do find it, and I've been pondering all morning about the right word to use, interesting / curious / perplexing / puzzling that you've managed to escape any discussions about angels until now. Are they not all over Christmas trees in the Home Depot? Or, I guess she hasn't seen "It's A Wonderful Life", or been in a Hallmark store? I would have thought angels were kind of all over.
Not that you need my endorsement or anything, but, dude, keep on keepin' on... It's obviously not a knee-jerk reaction, but a well-thought-out position on your view. More power to you.
I confess, we've punted on the angel thing for a while, since Schuyler always thought they were fairies (dressed for winter, apparently) and we didn't actually divest her of that belief.
I should have known that you would post about this in such an elegant and succinct way and take the words right out of my mouth:
"To those of us who aren't believers and who aren't raising our kids as Christians, it's no more or less silly than the rest of it."
I have seen (on Facebook) and heard so many people make fun of this particular instance and I know some of them must believe in a personal god or some such similar thing and I've wondered how they do the mental gymnastics to make fun of Teh Wapture and not see the irony. One of life's eternal mysteries, I guess. :)
Also, when I nannied for friends kids (4 and 1 years old) who I knew were being taught about God, I always made sure to answer questions related to religion/faith/god with... "That would be a good question for your mom or dad." ;)
I just read this.. I am behind. I am a christian, though it took me a long time to get to it.. i've been a unitarian universalist, buddhist and wiccan before trying on 3 different flavors of christianity and settling on the 3rd - episcopalian, at age 38. i am not a parent, but if i were, i too object to a public school teacher talking about heaven. now, if it were in sunday school that is a whole different matter, because it is taught within our denominational beliefs. school, and the diversity of beliefs in school, is a whole other matter.
i do believe there is a place and time for faith in school, because we really can't deny that it impacts our personal experiences and the way we interpret what we learn, but, especially in elementary school, this must done be with caution and with all parents aboard. i guess my authority to make that statement is that i am a phd student in instructional technology who is focusing on teacher education and who was a teaching assistant in a science in society course for pre-service secondary science teachers over the spring. but, my other authority is that i am human and i don't believe we can remove that personal context in a learning situation. but it is the approach that i think is key.
i am glad you are sticking up for what you believe, that you are raising your daughter as you believe. i just wish others of my faith would leave you alone and remember that this country that we live in was founded on core beliefs, like freedom of religion. *sigh* that is too often forgotten though. *sigh*
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