Well, someone finally said it. I've been waiting for a month for someone to come right out and say it, and with yesterday's email, I finally got an honest soul who wasn't afraid to use the words.
After all the thinly veiled remarks I have gotten from a particular group of people about how Schuyler is a horrible little brat and it's my fault for not disciplining her properly, someone finally figured out what's wrong with her.
I don't hit her. I don't beat Schuyler.
(I can only assume that by "what's wrong with her", they mean the fact that she is apparently an out-of-control barbarian and not her mutism. No one has suggested that she simply needs to have the words beaten out of her. Not yet, anyway.)
No one ever puts it in those terms, of course. People hide behind words like "spank" and "swat" and "discipline" and "corporal punishment" and, as my Agnostic Maybe-God is my witness, "Spanking With Love". (URL updated; the old one is now a porn site, chicka-pow-pow!) That site uses as its logo a heart formed by a pair of upturned buttocks. I kid you not.
(The "Spanking With Love" site is a real peach, by the way. In addition to some fun "how to" sections, there is also a page for kids who WANT to be spanked and how to get their parents to do so. I wonder how many spanking parents really want to think that their kids might be getting aroused by it? Believe me when I say that I'm all for spanking your girlfriend, that dirty little whore/French maid/Catholic schoolgirl/sexy veterinarian/whatever. Your own kids? Not so much.)
There are, in fact, a lot of ways to describe the act of physically striking a small child in order to cause pain with the intent of imposing your will on them. You can use any number of words and never even get around to "beat", "bully", "violence" or "abuse". It is one of the many attributes that make the English language so powerful, its ability to elegantly mask the true meaning behind concepts and behaviors.
So there it is. I threw some words out there, and it is from those words that you can, if you haven't figured it out already, discern my feelings towards physically punishing my child. That's my kid. You are free to beat your own kid. You are free to use violence against your own son or daughter. You are free, inasmuch as the law will allow, to ABUSE your own child.
Just don't expect me to use your terminology.
I've heard the arguments, and I'm sure I'm about to hear them again. And because I have written on occasion about isolated incidents where Schuyler felt compelled to act out aggressively, the Loving Spankers will no doubt say that I have raised an unruly child.
That's fine. Her school doesn't agree, and neither do any of her other caregivers. She has never been cited as unusually aggressive, either as a non-verbal child or otherwise, and her behavior, while troubling to me on those occasions when I have written about it, has always been described by her teachers as normal for a child her age. (Although I must say that if she had been cited, I would be even less likely to hurt her.)
But what do that bunch of liberal, permissive, crunchy granola educator hippies know about raising a child? Do they have children? And this brings us to another argument. "People who oppose spanking children simply do not understand the what it is like trying to raise a child." Okay, fair enough. So why do you spank? To teach your child a constructive lesson or to relieve your own anger?
The American Academy of Pediatrics thinks it knows the answer.
Corporal punishment is of limited effectiveness and has potentially deleterious side effects. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that parents be encouraged and assisted in the development of methods other than spanking for managing undesired behavior.
It thinks it knows the result of beating your kids, too.
The more children are spanked, the more anger they report as adults, the more likely they are to spank their own children, the more likely they are to approve of hitting a spouse, and the more marital conflict they experience as adults. Spanking has been associated with higher rates of physical aggression, more substance abuse, and increased risk of crime and violence when used with older children and adolescents.
And in a 2002 study looking back at sixty years of research on corporal punishment, Elizabeth Gershoff, Ph. D., found that the only positive result of spanking was immediate compliance; long-term compliance was actually diminished as a result of corporal punishment. Spanking was also directly linked to increased rates of aggression, delinquency, mental health disorders, problems in relationships with parents, and the likelihood of those children being physically abused and, eventually, abusing their own children.
So. It doesn't work, and it fucks up your kids. Seems pretty straightforward to me. But you, in the back? You had something to say?
"You know, I was spanked as a child, and I grew up to be perfectly healthy and have raised my kids just fine."
Did you? You think? You were, as a small child, routinely subjected to violence by someone probably five times your size so that you would be subject to their demands? As a result, you grew up, had some small children of your own, and then proceeded to beat them into submission as well?
We have a different definition of "perfectly healthy", you and I. We have a wildly different idea of what it means for an innocent child to be "just fine".
You may think that I believe that if you as a parent spank your children, I automatically believe that you are a bad parent. I don't, not necessarily and not without knowing what kind of parent you are as a whole. Nor do I think your children are necessarily going to grow up to be damaged.
But I do think you are wrong. And as much as you might feel sorry for my kid for having me as a father, I guarantee I feel more sorry for yours.
What you said.
ReplyDeletei have to ask (and maybe you've mentioned it and i've just forgotten) - were you spanked as a kid? i love all the research - my husband and i are both opposed to spanking, but we were both swatted (not a lot, just a little) as youngsters and the facts about long-term repercussions are scarily accurate. i worry about snapping at some point (we don't have kids yet) and i know it's more temper than "here's a lesson"...
ReplyDeleteI've got to say... hells yeah. It is sad and ridiculous that some parents feel the need to hurt their kids physically. To teach them a lesson? Please.
ReplyDeleteMy boyfriend was forced to go outside and "pick a switch" before his mum beat him with it. And he says it's good that he learned discipline. This is beyond horrifying. Anyway, thanks for sharing your opinion. Don't let the morons give you shit, Roberto.
It always puzzled me - how can you teach your two-year-old "we don't hit other children" by hitting him?
ReplyDeleteMy in-laws tell "hilarious" stories of how they would be lined up for beatings by their father's belt. He'd hit all 6 siblings until the guilty one confessed. They tell these stories as someone who has been to war may tell "funny" stories of limbs blown off. At the same time, they worship their long-passed father as a model parent. It frightens me a bit.
Curious what you think of the gender excuse... I hear a lot of people say they'd never hit their daughters, yet think their sons "need it" for discipline. The double standard makes me sad, yet explains a lot about the men those boys become.
(Good luck. One of those heavy hitting topics, but I've noticed women shy away from bringing this one up. We prefer fighting over breastfeeding, SAHM vs WOHM and homeschooling.)
How bizarre is it that people are perfectly comfortable doing to their own children what they would GO TO JAIL for doing to any adult?
ReplyDeleteMy uncle used to beat my cousins with a flyswatter. For the girl, he used the plastic part. For the boys, he used the metal part. I have no idea what the logic behind that is. "Girls are more delicate and thus need to be beaten more delicately."
ReplyDeleteI was never spanked. Our fear wasn't of being spanked, it was of disappointing the folks. We were guilt tripped into good behavior. The *one* time I was ever physically aggressive toward another kid, I felt so awful I went home and tattled on myself. (I was 9, some kid called me fat and I slapped him. Not exactly a mortal sin there.)
I don't have kids yet and wouldn't spank them if I did. I'm pretty sure it only teaches them to do what my cousins did - enlist in the army so they could kill things.
xoxo
anonymousey
Spanking = wrong. On so many levels. I have never seen a parent use spanking as anything except as a way to make themselves feel better. It doesn't help and it doesn't teach kids anything. I am immeadiatly hostile towards anyone who spanks their kids.
ReplyDeleteThe best behaved kids I know have never had a hand raised against them in anger...and the worst ones get spanked regularly. Are the second group of kids simply 'bad'? I doubt it, as the beatings began when they were barely walking.
Finally - spanking is done on the butt. I was taught as a child and in my social work classes that anything covered by a bathing suit is a private area. Spanking? is sexual abuse.
this was great, really. it is the second article that i have seen that is anti-smacking in about as many weeks and the both make me stop and think, which is great.
ReplyDeleteone of the hard and fast things my ex and i agreed on when our kid was born that there would be no smacking or hitting of any kind. i was smacked as a kid and i dont think it did me any good. it caused a giant rift between my dad and i because he scared the bejeesus out of me (these days, its better, but still uncomfortable) and it generally made me mistrust my parents. i think my ex's story was something along the same lines. i once watched my gramma lightly swat my kid on the nappy and i flipped my lid at her - told her in no uncertain terms that if she EVER laid a finger on my kid ever again then i would make sure that she was never EVER unsupervised in his presence again. she was all 'but i only tapped him to get his attention!', but i dont think that people understand that thats where it starts, that first you tape them to get their attention and then youre smacking them when theyre 'really bad' and then you lose the ability to differentiate between 'really bad' and 'mildly naughty' because you had a crap day yourself and you are whacking them for every little thing and they hate you because youre this unpredictable monster that they cant gauge the reactions of in any given situation.
and what REALLY gets me is when members of my family say 'oh but YOU were smacked and YOU turned out fine!' and i want to say REALLY? because actually i rememeber holding the fact that i wasnt allowed to say anything bad against you but you were allowed to tell me how stupid i was and beat the crap out of me whenever you felt like it, against you for a REALLY LONG TIME. and thanks but i do not want that for my own child.
people who smack are copping out. actually putting some thought into disciplining your child and attempting to help them understand what they did wrong takes TIME and EFFORT. most people cant be bothered. ugh.
err... sorry, i got carried away there.
We have a strong-willed five-year-old, and when she was four, my husband convinced me to lift our moratorium on spanking. He did it for a month or two, and at first, it seemed to work. But I put my foot down when my daughter slapped our two-year-old neighbor across the face and said it was because the little one had "misbehaved."
ReplyDeleteMy daughter and I had a conversation a few weeks later that I saved and dated, just to remind myself.
I asked her, "Do you think your behavior would be better if you had spankings?"
She said "Not much."
"Why?"
"Well, I need privacy on the bottom, for one thing. Why does Papa always spank me on the bottom? It's un-modest! It's *un-modest*!"
I think that just about answered the question for me.
i spank occasionally, and i always hate it. and i usually use it as a last resort thing....when all other responses have been exhausted. i think that spanking usually occurs when parents have not been educated about better alternatives. although spanking usually does work for the moment, i do wonder how internally-motivated a kid grows up to be when he made his/her decisions based on how painful his/her punishment would be for said particular behavior. i would love to know what parenting books you read....i want to hear more about your responses to schuyler's misbehavior. please write more.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Rob, for expressing so articulately a point of view I've held for years but couldn't express so thoroughly or gracefully.
ReplyDeleteAnd thank you mete, bun, and mo for making my long comment WAY shorter by saying a bunch of the things I would have wanted to say.
Hitting a child teaches them to hit. And to hate.
I was spanked as a child and it made me defiant, angry, and secretive (if you can hide your misbehavior, you won't get hit). It didn't make me obedient or well behaved.
It also made me think that it was okay to hit my little sister (3 years younger) when she misbehaved.
Luckily, I ended up in therapy for something else (more or less...I wonder how much of my internal anger came from my childhood experiences of violence) and this topic got covered as well. Plus my parents now really regret spanking us and have apologized for doing so.
I would NEVER hit my son. I've been tempted, sure, 'cause like any preschooler he can drive a person nuts. But I will never do it, because I love him. And I love me. I don't want to become a violent a**hole who beats kids.
And any adult who hits a child falls into that category.
Sorry for posting anonymously, Rob, but this is very personal stuff and I don't generally discuss it publicly. So call me "Grace," as in "there but for the..."
-- Grace
p.s. For the wackos who will be arriving here shortly: 1) no, it doesn't matter if you do it "with love," nor how hard you hit; 2) yes, I discipline my son firmly and consistently with a number of other methods; and 3) I constantly get comments from teachers, friends, and strangers about how very polite and well-behaved my son is.
MiM at Morphing into Mama has published some interesting anti-spanking essays with bibliographical citations etc in recent months. She posted a great "how-to" guest entry on changing behavior without spanking. Worth a look.
ReplyDeletehttp://morphingintomama.typepad.com/morphing_into_mama/2006/05/here_i_go_again.html
http://morphingintomama.typepad.com/morphing_into_mama/2006/05/well_you_asked.html
Not to mention how quickly spanking "only in the worst case" quickly escalates to spanking for almost every single problem. Wake up, parents. There are civilized ways to discipline your child. You have to teach them what to do, not what not to do. Spanking can't accomplish that.
ReplyDeleteWell said, Rob.
ReplyDeleteI am not particularly patient, and sometimes I lose my cool and tap my son on his hands to get him to stop doing something. Mostly when he is pinching me. He is 18 months old and is testing the world.
I feel guilty even about the tapping, which does NOT hurt. I can't even imagine intentionally hurting your child. If you don't respect your childs physical integrity (which you don't if you spank them) they are not ever really going to respect you as a person.
i was spanked for every minor infraction as a kid, with hands, leather belts, hair brushes. From there it escalated to having stuff like glass ashtrays thrown at my head, or being pinned down and beaten senseless.
ReplyDeletenot in a million years would I condone striking a child, for ANY reason. It's barbaric, and cruel, and abusive.
I have babysat many kids and never, ever struck a child. I would never strike my own kid. There's better ways to correct behavior in a child.
Fuck yeah. I was hit as a child, not severely by community standards, and I hated it and I will not do that to my daughter. I've recently realised that actually, I don't have any resources for disciplining her without hitting (she's one-and-a-half; we're just getting to the need for it), and I'm seeking help from other parents I trust on how they do it. And what we're doing works. I've never seen her cringe from someone in fear, and I hope I never do.
ReplyDeleteI don't know. There's definitely a line between spanking and abuse. I know I got spanked as a kid and have no lasting damage, and my little brother really didn't and he's a total shit. That might just be a result of underlying personality, however.
ReplyDeleteI have a puppy, and I've hit her before. Running across the road to chase a cat could get her killed, so she has to learn not to do it. I hate hitting her, but I can't explain to her why she's doing the wrong thing.
And I think sometimes kids are like that - that if they can't be made to see something is wrong, spanking is a deterant until they're old enough to figure it out for themselves.
But it ought to be a last resort, always. And these people who're telling you how to raise your kid ought to sod off so far as I'm concerned.
I'm...I'm at a loss. I've read you since Schuyler was born. I've yet to see her do something innappropriate for a little kid. Wow.
ReplyDeleteAnd if there is any child who needs to know that hitting is not an alternative form of communication, it's yours, no?
And they call you a bad father for this?
Who are these people? Wowwwww.
Does spanking your brat of a teen into submission count? :P
ReplyDeleteViolence teaches violence. It's quite simple.
I agree with all. Undoubetdly there will be some ignoramous's (sp) who will arrive here and unleash their ignorance on this topic and to them I say stay in your corner, don't even bother, you are completely outnumbered. And oh by the way, get a clue. You are not going to convince anyone that your way is better because it's not; it's worse. Worse for the child, worse for the parent.
ReplyDeleteIf I knew Schuyler in my day to day life or my son interacted with her, I would expect some questionable behavior from time to time, for two reasons. One, who can't know her and look at her and get that she has a lot going on inside, she is smart and gets it. She probably gets stuff we adults don't get yet but it's hard for her to express herself as other people do fully; to me that would be frustrating to say the least (on occasion). Two, she's six. Duh. Six year olds are still figuring out their boundaries and testing, my son does it and I think it's absolutely normal. He's figuring out his world. Ya think?
These folks who are insinuating your daughter is unruly, I wouldn't even give them the time of day. I wouldn't even give them credence by mentioning them anymore. They don't get it and they never will. Sad for them. Even more sad for their kids.
Jenn
I was 'spanked', on almost a daily basis, by my mother. Belts, switches, hands, plus the hair-pulling, slamming my head against the wall, you name it. Without doubt, this fucked me up in ways from which I am still recovering. Her defense always was the same: "I've never hit you in the face with a closed fist." Oh, shit, you're right. Thanks, ma!
ReplyDeleteIf she had only given me the sort of swats that my boyfriend's parents gave him, I still would have been damaged, because all of the verbal abuse and other fun shenanigans. But - and this thought has not entered my mind until this moment - I'm thinking that perhaps the problem with a lot of (most?) spanking is that it is done by parents who are damaged, angry people who use it as a method of expressing their frustration. Those people are fucking up their kids in all sorts of ways, of which physical abuse is just one.
Not that it matters much to me; I have no plans to spank. (Note to self: Must work harder on that fear-inducing glare...)
My son is only 17 months old, and before he was born, I thought I would use spanking as part of a disciplinary entourage. I was spanked once or twice as a 3-6 year old, but I don't remember it.
ReplyDeleteThen he was born and I can't imagine ever hitting him. Even when he's driving me insane I beat my own head against the wall, I don't want to hit him.
My husband, who claimed to also think a little spanking was okay as part of the entourage, recently got angry with me because I pushed the stroller ahead of me on the sidewalk too roughly. I don't think he has the stomach for it either.
Bravo, Rob.
ReplyDeleteI was hit as a child, and I used to hit my child, and that's one of the reasons I'm not her primary caretaker anymore, because I could see what I was doing to her psyche. There's nothing more gutwrenching than to see your child cringe and flinch away every time you lift your hand for any reason. If one even notices that sort of thing, of course, which unfortunately some parents just don't.
ReplyDeleteMy daughter will undoubtedly have many adulthood issues as a result of her childhood upbringing. I hope that hitting won't be one of them.
Growing up, we had this big, thick, leather paddle that S&M people would pay much money for. My Dad had brought it home from work, and we all tested it by striking it against our hands - holy shit it hurt! It was used when we were pre-teens, out of control in the lower rec-room, piling furniture up high, balancing on it and throwing each other down "king of the hill" indoors. Awesome fun. My mother did not brave coming downstairs, so she'd threaten the "paddle" and when we'd ignore her, she'd yank it out of the special drawer it was kept in, and smack it on the counter. It was like hearing gunshots, and we'd think "whoa - she's really mad" and stop being animals. Until the next time. I don't recall ever being hit with it, and once she tried to strike my brother when he was a teen and he just hugged her and picked her up and laughed, so she didn't try that again. I simply cannot imagine a life where you fear the one you love. I think I would just not love.
ReplyDeleteYou're awesome, Rob.
ReplyDeleteI have intense problems with conflict in pretty much all situations, and my partner and I have had problems with this because I shut down when we start agreeing on anything significant, because I expect yelling and the implicit threat of or actual physical violence.
My parents actually didn't have to hit me all that much, because I would cower and run and hide because I knew it was possible.
When I was maybe fourteen, -ish, I snapped and slapped my mother back and said "I'm big enough to hit you back now, and you're not going to hit me anymore." She didn't, but I don't think any kid should have to do or say that.
Hands, shoes, wooden spoons (regular spoons for smaller infractions and the spoons with the holes in them for when Mom was really mad), and a hairbrush to the arm a few times. It was always Mom except the one time. Dad spanked me once - 3 hits for lying - and said he'd never do it again.
ReplyDeleteAt about the age of 9, I did something "bad" (no clue what it was) while my mom was gone. In order to hopefully prevent the inevitable beating, I gotten the wooden spoon with the hole out, dropped my pants, and hit myself. I then called my mom to tell her what had happened and my punishment of myself and ask if I'd done enough or should hit myself more.
THAT, my friends, is fucked up.
What is more fucked up is that this story has been trotted out for family and friends as a riotous tale of how well trained I was.
The other point I wanted to share, just quickly, is that motivating your child with guilt is every single bit as bad as hitting them. By teaching your child to feel guilt all the time and act certain ways because of it, you open them up to predators of every variety, as children and adults.
Be very, very careful of guilt; it can bring plenty of horrors of its own.
Um.....not all Christians feel spanking is right. And even though I'm a moderate / liberal Christian, I'm just saying.
ReplyDeleteUm.....not all Christians feel spanking is right. And even though I'm a moderate / liberal Christian, I'm just saying.
ReplyDeleteOkay, I'm missing what this is in reference to, I'm sorry. Can you elaborate?
When my son was approx. 3 yrs. old, I spanked him(maybe 5 hits through a diaper) one time when he refused to stay in his bed for a nap. Yes, I admit it was out of anger. He will turn 16 next week, and he still sometimes brings up the memory. I am ashamed I lost my temper and took it out on him (although he says it didn't hurt). Out of all the wonderful things we did together when he was young, this is the memory he brings up most often.
ReplyDeleteIsn't it weird, the things we remember? And you did it one time.
ReplyDeleteI have a lot of memories of being hit by my dad. And it's funny, because I suspect that if he were still alive and you were to ask him if he ever abused his kids, he would not only say no, but would be genuinely offended at the accusation.
The way I see it Rob, you have a tough enough time determining what your pretty ninja does and doesn't understand from the communication you have with her. I am frequently amazed at how my child interprets what I've just said to him. When I thought I was perfectly clear. I wholly agree using adding violence to make your point adds nothing useful.
ReplyDeleteI've also found that even with the most profound punishment I can provide (a total electronics ban) it won't necessarily always help my child suppress the need to fight back. A person large or small can only take so much.
~deb
The day I tried to swat my cat was the day I realized I should wait to have kids until I can learn to control that side of myself.
ReplyDeleteNo being, child or pet, deserves corporal punishment.
I had a very difficult child and I have to tell you that although there were moments when I could have nearly put my fist through a wall, it never, ever occurred to me to hit him. Ever.
ReplyDeleteHe's nineteen now and has turned out to be one of the nicest and most genuine and self-confident people I know.
It's almost unbelievable to me that this discussion is actually happening.
I was spanked twice as a child - and only after (I'm told) long discussion between my parents and after weeks of other discipline methods failed. The first time was for biting people and the second for kicking. I don't know... but I do have to give them credit for not doing it in the heat of the moment, but after acting like, you know, mostly rational adults. I don't believe this screwed me up too badly, and I know my father's always felt a little bad about it. (It did work though - I never did those things again.)
ReplyDeleteMy boyfriend, on the other hand, was beaten regularly by his parents. Once he got the strap because he ate a piece of paper at school. Yeah, because that's the appropriate reaction. All that discipline totally failed. You can't get beaten that often and still care. If you know that it doesn't matter what you do, you are still going to be whipped, you stop giving a shit. This has seriously screwed up his relationship with his family, and is something we have talked a lot about in terms of our potential future children. It also screwed him up in ways I don't think anyone will ever fully understand, and it sucks for him.
Because I was spanked as a child, I have never spanked any of my three children (now almost all grown). NEVER. Some of the clearest memories of my childhood are of being hit. I did not want that for my children.
ReplyDeleteThere is something to be said for a last resort... I don't use spanking or swatting or whatever as a regular form of discipline. But with a strong-willed daughter who has a bad case of selective hearing, I have used it to protect her safety.
ReplyDeleteFrom across the room, I saw my four year old reach towards the pot on the hot stove. She is well aware that the stove is off limits, but like any kid, she tests her boundries. Three sharp commands to cease didn't work. Before her hand reached the stove, I swatted it. She got the point, finally.
I'm not going to haul off and smack my kid around for running towards a street, but I feel that there are certain situations where it may be apt to have to do something along those lines.
As a general rule, I think corporal punishment is terrible.
I have to agree with what Ro said. I don't spank Rymer mostly because The Look and terse 'go sit on your bed and think about what we should do about this. I love you but I'm so angry I can't talk to you right now' is probably a million times more effective at this point. However, the time he ran across a semi-busy street..yeah I swatted him. He looked at me wide eyed and said, "that hurt" I replied, "yeah and I didnt like doing it but getting smushed by a car will hurt even more or worse kill you" it did the trick. I doubt he'll be scarred for life from it and it beat taking a three year old to the morgue to see why kids shouldnt run out into the street for any reason whatsoever. I'm saving that one for when he's about to start driving heh.
ReplyDeleteP.S. who the hell said or implied that Schuyler is some ill-bred brat anyhow? You've always written pretty fairly about her experiences and it seems that she's actually better behaved than most. I'll say one thing, I'm glad she's spirited and filled with a bit of punk assery, it means she's pretty damn sure of her place in the world.
Rob...I was spanked only occasionally as a child (and I actually remember begging my mom to hit me one time rather than continue berating me verbally). I got hit with a wooden spoon for losing my mother's purchase in Sears. How does that even make sense? She waited til we got home & deliberately got out the spoon to spank me. And I don't know how old I was, but young enough to hide in the clothing racks. So she let me carry her bags, let me play in the racks (which I wouldn't tolerate in my child), but hit me for the consequences of allowing me to do those things.
ReplyDeleteSpanking never makes sense. And if you are doing it because you have lost your temper, you have a problem. I'm not proud of the way I yell at my six year old daughter at times, but corporal violence teaches nothing but corporal violence.
Schuyler's a little kid. She's going to make mistakes & do stupid things occasionally. She needs to be taught to deal with her frustration, and beating it out of her doesn't seem like a logical solution.
You're right. Stick to your instincts.
Tracy
I have a friend who went to one of the few (Catholic) high schools where corporal punishment is still allowed, and he thinks it was just great that he got whacked by a teacher periodically. I just can't imagine ever sending my kid to a school that used fists and broomsticks to discipline kids, even rambunctious teenaged boys, but apparently many parents sent their sons to that school specifically because of the method of discipline.
ReplyDeleteThere are lots of arguments for and against spanking, but here's what it comes down to for me: I've known a lot of people who wished they weren't hit when they were young, but I've never met anyone who looked back and wished they were hit.
I work in daycare for school-age children. Before that, I've taught every grade from preschool to 5th and babysat for years before that. Never *once* have I raised a hand to a child. Good for me? Hardly; that's the minimum expectation for a caregiver. If I can control a group of thirty children without needing to put my hands on them, I can't imagine why any parent would need to resort to physical discipline.
ReplyDelete"Um.....not all Christians feel spanking is right. And even though I'm a moderate / liberal Christian, I'm just saying.
ReplyDeleteOkay, I'm missing what this is in reference to, I'm sorry. Can you elaborate?"
Sorry, Rob. I thought I read something else my first time through this morning. What I did read was this:
"But what do that bunch of liberal, permissive, crunchy granola educator hippies know about raising a child? Do they have children? And this brings us to another argument. "People who oppose spanking children simply do not understand the what it is like trying to raise a child.""
and I'm assuming I read too much into it (I thought you were going for only the non-liberal crazy Christians spank). It really wasn't meant in offense!
In my defense it was early and I was starting to have contractions and hoping they would actually turn into the real thing.
So I learned my lesson. Don't contract, read & reply. It doesn't mix....Sorry!
Wow, I had no idea how popular the wooden spoon was with child abusers. Much like the 'spanking' itself, I thought I was the only one who got a piece of that treat. (If anyone's parents had horrific taste in kitchen decor and had gigantic wooden spoons and forks on the wall, which were then used to 'spank' you: Me too! The idea is comical to me now, in an admittedly dark, perverse sort of way.)
ReplyDeleteIt's just amazing to me how people with absolutely NO concept of what it is to walk in someone's shoes know better than anybody how total strangers should behave. I'm just glad that you are smart enough to realize how ridiculous people who want to parent Schulyer for you really are.
ReplyDeleteThe most ridiculous thing I hear around me are parents who spank their children to teach them not to hit other children.
You're doing just fine, Dad.
My mother was beat as a child. Beat. With frying pans, beat. When she had my sister, 13 years before me, she raised her as she was raised. She was young and she flew off the handle one day, “spanked” out of anger, took it a bit too far, then caught herself. She said it all came rushing back to her, how she felt when my grandmother would hit her, the shame, fear, hate, all of those things and vowed never to hit her children again. She came to her senses.
ReplyDeleteI was never hit.
My sister has 2 kids and they got “spanked” mainly for acting out in class or for bad grades (which by the way turned out to be a learning disorder.) The older boy is now 17, high school drop out with frightening anger problems. The younger girl (who got hit much much less) is almost 16, a B average student who plans to go to college but has fear and depression issues that she hides behind a veneer of confidence and snotty remarks. Neither were beaten to a point that left marks but their dad is 6ft 2in, large build man. I’m not saying that hitting them was the root of all their problems but it had to be so scary for them.
I don’t have kids yet but I will one day and I know that hitting them will NEVER happen. I agree totally with you because my family has illustrated almost every point you made.
-Amy
Yeah, I'm 6'2". I'm trying to imagine the circumstances where it would be even remotely appropriate to hit Schuyler. Maybe if she was on fire or covered with poisonous tarantulas. Otherwise, no.
ReplyDeleteRob: Fire; stop drop and roll.
ReplyDeleteTarantula's; Jump up and down, they'll fall off. If you hit them, they'll sting.
(Sorry, trying to inject some humor here. This whole subject is dark.)
I don't spank my kids. I don't think it does any good. I was spanked once in a while and all it did was make me afraid of my parents. I don't want my children feeling that way about me.
ReplyDeleteI perfected the Hairy Eyeball and the Hissed Admonishments. If those don't work, they are followed swiftly by the Removal From Location and a Sit On Your Bed And Think About What You Did.
I have to say that I've read thru a lot of your blog and I don't really see how your daughter "deserves" to be spanked. Yeah, she's acted out and acted up, but, um, she's a little kid, right? She certainly doesn't seem to warrant all this vitriol that's directed at her - oh, and the best part, by people who don't even know her. Weird. But people are deeply, deeply weird.
Thus spake Julia: "people are deeply, deeply weird."
ReplyDeleteDitto; I'm hearing some of the butting-in-on-a-mother's-choice from my best friend who's just had her first baby. Said friend is a big Springsteen fan, and Springsteen is now touring in support of his Pete Seegar tribute album; my friend posted a question on a discussion board asking if, because it was a folk concert, whether it may be mellow enough to bring her baby girl to, or whether it was still kinda loud and should she leave her girl at home.
Instead she got reams of people chewing her out. The way they went on you'd have thought she was boasting about being a groupie and using her daughter's diaper to smuggle smack backstage. She backed out and decided to talk to sane humans instead.
I told her that if she REALLY wanted to see sparks fly, she should start a "breast vs. formula" debate.
Awesome post, and spot on, Rob.
ReplyDeleteTHere is a school near us that condones spanking. No lie. In fact, parents have to sign a waiver that they are allowing to have their children HIT BY THE PRINCIPAL if they are 'out of line.' Come on - what kid isn't out of line sometimes? What do they want us to produce - drones that say yes sir, yes ma'am?
And parents pay for their kids to go there? To have a small class size, but live in fear of stepping over the line? I get sick every time I pass that school. It is a Christian school too. Do you think Jesus would have liked that?
The Bible quotes him as saying, "Let the children come to me." He didn't add on " You may or may not get beaten today."
A boy on my son's team goes there. One day I drove him home from practice. ( his parents are nice people - on the outside, anyway) He told my son that he hates school b/c he is always afraid. Nice.
At the next game, I told his mother what he said. She thanked me for telling her, but I know it didn't register. ANd guess what, Rob? Her kid is the angriest little boy I have ever seen. My boys - never, ever spanked, and never , ever threatened with it - are awesome kids.
Discipline means teaching - not beating.
Thanks for my rant outlet!
ME
Rob, thanks for writing this. My daughter and I are living with my parents right now and in my dad's opinion, there's nothing wrong with a kid that a good ass-whipping won't solve. This is the attitude he raised me with, and I can't say that I'm perfectly fine. But I'm not raising my own daughter with that attitude, and I think that's a good start.
ReplyDeleteI smacked my daughter on the arm recently, out of frustration and anger over her behavior, and her immediate reaction was to hit me back. It was the perfect reaction -- how can I expect her to respect my punishment of her, when it was not respectful of her? I would not want her to sit still if anyone else assaulted her -- how I can expect her to sit still if I do?
Rob, you kick ass. Just not Schuyler's.
ReplyDeleteMy parents were the type who didn't hit much, but when they did, it was a doozy. It made me scared of my father, resent my mother, and generally not like my childhood that much.
I don't think I'd be strong enough not to hit a kid of my own, since most kids I've ever met have had at least moments when they were wretched little shits, but I'm not a parent and don't plan to be.
Margaret said...
ReplyDelete"Growing up, we had this big, thick, leather paddle that S&M people would pay much money for. My Dad had brought it home from work..."
Margaret, though I'm sure I don't really want to know, I have to wonder just what kind of work your father did...
So... I dont know you. But I love the way you write. I used to baby sit a child who lost the ability to speak after experiencing seizures as a child. We utilized sign language (even though the parents refused to learn) and he did well when he realized he was able to communicate. It was when he couldn't that things went badly. Biting, kicking, constant 'screaming', etc. I'm sure some of these you've experienced in one way or another. Your daughter seems to be functioning quite well! I'm sure there are many hellion experiences that grow from the frustration of being unable to speak, but nothing that spanking would fix. Sneakiness, searching out fun, and getting into trouble are only natural for all kids, even if such events occur a bit more in your own child. What a wonderful experience though. Granted, frustrating and embarrassing occasionally, how absolutely wonderful that she's alive, interacting, stirring up trouble, and being absolutely adorable while doing so. I can see her in my head- thinking of herself as a king kong/dinosaur conquering the world... you are a lucky man, and she's lucky to have a parent such as yourself.
ReplyDeleteI guess I am confused. Did you ever find out why Schuyler was thumping that boy? She may have been treating as she was treated or responding to taunting or some other form of abuse. I always figured she was probably justified. I spanked my twins until they had enough cognitive ability to understand a verbal warning/reprimand. And I always gave verbal reprimands and warnings before spanking. One twin spanks his kids after verbal warnings and one never spanks. From what I can tell, you and Julie are excellent parents and are entitled to raise Schuyler however you wish. She appears to be healthy, happy and darling.
ReplyDeleteSpanking is a completely creepy and weird practice. Glad I never was on the receiving end, and glad I won't be passing the weirdness on.
ReplyDeleteWho *are* these people anyway? And how many are we talking about? Just a few random trolls who give you their unsolicited opinion about a child they've never met? If that's all they are...then they're just dipshits & not even worth going off on. To paraphrase Jesus: The assholes will always be with us. Don't give them the satisfaction of a rant.
According to the counselors, she and that boy wrestle and play a lot, so it was, in their opinion, simply roughhousing. That doesn't make it okay, but at least she wasn't actually fighting.
ReplyDeleteThey also pointed out that the boy outweighs Schuyler by at least twenty pounds and would have no problem getting away from her if he felt threatened. She has a rather big attitude, but is still a tiny little girl.
I'm feeling guilty now. I once smacked a child in my charge. It dosn't matter that I had parental permission to do so, which I did, or that the kid had repeatedly disobeyed and put himself in serious danger, which he had. I hauled off and smacked him because I was bloody furious and wanted to do something to show him that. NEVER AGAIN.
ReplyDeleteAlso,I remember a school vote in fourth grade - did the students want corporal punishment rather than detention? The motion didn't pass, but there were kids who did indeed vote YES. Elementary school kids. WTF? Who votes to be beaten?
This is one subject that will forever be debated just like abortion, etc... But I do feel that each family and household have their own ways of dealing with discipline. I do know that their is a big difference between abuse and spanking and anyone who says different is WRONG. But for all of us bible thumpers...spare the rod, spoil the child. To each his own and whatever works for each family as long as the child does not suffer ABUSE (not meaning a spanking)
ReplyDeleteI respectfully but wholeheartedly disagree.
ReplyDeleteI left home at 17 after my mom finally threatened one too many times to beat the daylights out of me. I never hit her, but I had to say "if you ever hit me again...i will put you in the hospital." She got wide eyed as I walked off.
ReplyDeleteI've reflexively swatted small hands from hot stoves or dangerous things, but man, I never even thought of smacking our dog for infractions, though I did see several shades of red when a roomate screamed at this elderly, confused, nearly deaf dog, and threw a boot at her.
The dog was from a previously abusive home, and it made me very aware of how much damage fear and violence does, even from something so minor as a spank.
One of the worst I ever got was being held down in the back seat of the car at a campground and having my mom punching the daylights out of me. I lost a lot of respect for her, and some for all the people who didn't dare intervene.
The canadian government now considers spanking as "abuse", if I recall correctly, which I think was long over due.
Well said, Rob.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree. I was spanked as a child and I hated it. It seems especially ironic (and pathetic) when a parent spanks their child for hitting another child. So we use violence to teach our children not to be violent? Huh? I want my children to obey out of respect, not out of fear. I think more parents need to foster a mutual respect with their children. They are people, after all, only smaller. I looked up the Spank With Love website- YIKES. Sometimes I forget there are such crazy people out there.
ReplyDeleteThe whole "spare the rod and spoil the child" thing is completely taken out of context. The "rod" was the shepherd's crook and he certainly wasn't using it to beat his sheep into submission. He was instead using it to guide them on the right path (by tapping the ground or blocking the wrong way) or to rescue them with the crook when they fell into crevasses. Beating sheep would be a completely useless management technique.
ReplyDeleteI got whacked with a jump rope once, because it was handy... I remember running down the hall and slamming the bathroom door, although that wasn't too bright because it was a deadend hallway... But I do NOT remember what the crime was. Just the punishment. And so what did I learn? To this day my mother still complains about how much time I spent hibernating in my room, but it was safer to do NOTHING than to do something and risk getting in trouble.
Recently, I had to write an employee orientation manual for a client. I was asked to include wording specifying that striking coworkers with (or hurling) cooking implements would be grounds for termination.
ReplyDeleteAs someone who can barely bring herself to use a flyswatter on a fly, it wouldn't have occurred to me that alleged adults would need to have such a rule spelled out for them. But after reading this entry and the comments it generated, I can see the domino effect of smacking-as-intervention. It's pretty scary.
I got spanked only once as a kid, but that one time was pretty bad. I remember how bad it hurt, how I didn't understand it, and how I didn't talk for a whole week afterwards. My dad did it, while my mom watched. He used his belt - one of the 2" super-wide belts from the 70's. Anyway, it only happened once, but it's one of my childhood memories I think of the most. And everytime I think of it, it fills me up with anger. Out of the many positive things about my childhood, it's a shame that it dominates my head so much - and I think it makes me feel more sorry for my parents than myself.
ReplyDeleteSchuyler is your child and I never read into her behavior as violent or aggressive. You've chosen not to spank your child and given plenty of really good reasons not to.
ReplyDeleteI was spanked on occasion as a child and every single time I deserved it. As a parent, there are just some battles you can't afford to lose. Especially if the voice you use for "Clean up your room!" is the same as the voice you use for "Get out of the street!" I don't oppose spanking as a means of getting a kid's attention but I also don't deny the reprecussions it can have as a child gets older.
As a parent, there are just some battles you can't afford to lose.
ReplyDeleteHuh. I can't agree that hitting a child is the only way to protect him/her. I'm not singling you out, but the implied argument there is that by NOT hitting your children, you are actually endangering them somehow. And that's just ridiculous to me.
I maintain that if you are unable to make an important, vital point to your child without resorting to physical violence, then your problem is one of communication, not discipline.
What was it they did in one-or-the-other sequel to "Little Women"? The boy had to hit the father when he did something really bad. I think that would only work if you had the right kind of relationship with your parent, but. If you didn't actually like him/her particularly much, that'd be not so punishing...
ReplyDeleteI find it weird that so many people can remember a single spanking from a very early age. I've been told I was spanked once, probably around 3 years old, for something that was worth it. I have no recollection.
ReplyDeleteAnd just on the subject of fear - I said earlier I was spanked as a child - honestly, if my dad hit me now, I'd hit back. Spanking doesn't have to engender a sense of fear and danger. My dad was the one to spank me, but all my relationship problems now are with my mother. Go figure.
ReplyDeleteI maintain that if you are unable to make an important, vital point to your child without resorting to physical violence, then your problem is one of communication, not discipline.
ReplyDeleteYup. And these "spank to protect your child from physical danger" posts confuse me. If you're physically close enough to your child to swat her hand away from the stove, you're close enough to grab it to keep her from getting burned.
I get my kid's attention, when I really need to have it, by raising my voice, or by putting my face a few inches from hers and telling her to look into my eyes, or by picking her up from what she's doing and turning her to face me. I don't see how spanking would be more attention-getting than any of these tactics.
And if you say you only spank as a last resort, then what do you do when spanking doesn't work? Doesn't the logic of "there are just some battles you can't afford to lose" dictate that you then escalate beyond spanking to something even more serious?
I was spanked once and I remember it. I remember how I went to bed and put three pants. I remember how I lay with my back to the wall so my dad wouldn't be able to spank me again. I remember all and it happened only once.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't spank a child. I don't hit my pets. Both understand voice changes perfectly fine. Maybe the do not have a clue about what I'm saying but they do know how I sound when they do something wrong.
I have to disagree with you, Rob. While I do agree that you have a right to raise your child as you wish, so do I. Telling me I'm a child abuser because I swatted my child for complete and total disobedience and disregarding my verbal requests (many times) is what's wrong. You don't get to make that choice in my family. Any more than my telling you to put your non-verbal child in an institution is right. Both situations are wrong, as you have not lived in my shoes, with my child and I've not lived in yours with your child.
ReplyDeleteAnd to the person who remarked about being an educator with 30 kids. Oh, it's so different. Having a child 24/7 (not schlepping them off on someone else to raise) and being a teacher who only has them for a limited amount of time each day is completely different. And I've done both, so I know.
I'm a homeschooler, a Christian, I don't beat or abuse my children. But, on the other hand, my children listen when I ask them too. They are happy, carefree, obedient, polite and delight to be around. That comes from communication and discipline, both verbal and corporal. As needed.
So, Rob, are you going to apologize for accusing many people of being abusers?
Or, can we call you neglectful for not putting your child in an institution, where she can get so much better care (And that's not what I belive, but I do believe that you are using the same brush here).
So, Rob, are you going to apologize for accusing many people of being abusers?
ReplyDeleteAs long as I personally believe that hitting a child is abuse? Not likely, no.
Or, can we call you neglectful for not putting your child in an institution, where she can get so much better care...
Call me whatever you like. If you go to www.blogger.com and check it out, I'll bet you can even figure out how to set up your very own fancy pants blog to say whatever you want. Enjoy!
As for having her institutionalized, we'll get right on that.
I got into an argument with a guy today when I watched him pull his very young childs pants down (in front of a number of people) and spank him quite hard. He said I had no right to tell him how to disipline his child and I asked him how come if I where to hit him, I'd be arrested, but him hitting his child for no reason that I could see (little boy was walking by him **probably not fast enough to suit dad** and next thing I saw was him getting his pants pulled down and hit) shouldn't have the same consequences?
ReplyDeleteI am bad about confronting people who hit children, I don't even know why it bothers me as much as it does except that I was hit very regularly as a child and I just can't stand the thought of a child feeling the same way I did at those times. Rob, when I read your post, I saw the words I use to people every single time I get onto that subject. How can someone actually think hurting someone littler then themselves in order to make them bend to their will is ok???
please don't leave a comment if you're not a parent. until you have your own child will you understand- seriously. no, seriously i used to be like you-oh hell no, i'm not spanking.
ReplyDeleteuntil, i had my own child...
so you wake up in the morning with your 2 or 3 year old and you have a few things you would like to do for the day, but your child won't even give you enough time in the day to brush your teeth. and well, now you're trying to get the lil' tike dressed and they fight you tooth and nail and it's just taken about a half an hour to do that too and before you know it's 11am in the morning and you're still in your jammies. a lil' spankin' on the butt reinforces to the child that "hey, the world does not revolve around you. momma or dadda have stuff to do and you're going to let us get a few things done today." it's about teaching your kid to listen to mom and dad, work with us and let's get out of the house where the true fun begins. a hug and kiss and "hey, momma is the boss you need to listen" talk afterward completes this love circle. i discipline my children because i love them so much. they will grow up just fine and have the coping skills when things do not always go there way in this big world of ours.
So what you're describing is a situation where your frustration at your child's behavior leads you to hit them. I don't doubt that you love your child, but I do doubt that you're sending the message you think you're sending.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that this entry is still getting comments after what, four years?
you might want to take down your link to "spanking with love", as it is now a porn site. just letting you know! =P
ReplyDeleteGood call, thanks! URL updated...
ReplyDeleteMy dad spanked me as a kid, with a wooden spoon. That fucking hurts, a lot. He then went on to abuse me further, mostly verbally, although he did once drag me across a zebra crossing by my hair.
ReplyDeleteI'm nineteen now and severely depressed with anxiety issues and some self harm. I wonder whose fault that is? I seriously disapprove of spanking, pain is not the way to make a kid, or anyone, learn a lesson.